gezin Kaufman-Pohlman. Hannover Oldenburg ca 1800 datum emigratie naar USA

October 3, 2020

De onderstaande vraag ontving ik uit Arizona, zijn er data en correcte namen te vinden van emigratie en geboorte van dit gezin?

Karl/Charles F. Caveman b: 1820-1822 Hanover, Lower Saxony, Germany

Hendrick/Henry Caveman b: 12 Sep 1825 Hanover, Lower Saxony, Germany

John Frederick Caveman b: 03 Jan 1928 Oldenberg, Lower Saxony Germany

Karl died at a young age so I don’t have any idea when he emigrated but the younger brothers emigrated between 1842 and 1843. I never found any emigration record. Their mother was here in 1860 and I have no idea when she emigrated because the early Census did not ask that question.

In the early years they spelled the name: Kavermann, Kaverman, Kaveman, Kaferman and

Later the names were Caveman, Cavemann, Caverman and even Caseman.

The parents as the sons remembered their names on the Death Certificate when they died –

So hopefully the informant was correct.

Johannes Hendrik Kaufman b: between 1792-1800 – that was my guess. I think he died and that is when the boys headed for America. The Kaufman also has several spellings.

Mary Elizabeth Pohlmann b: 1800 Oldenberg, Germany

She was Elizabeth Kaveman, age 60 (1800) born Oldenberg, Germany – living with son John Frederick and his family in the 1860 Census. No death record found for her but I have written to the cemetery where her son John Fred. is buried and I am waiting for an answer.

Karl/Charles F. Caveman – I guessed he could be Karl in Germany – other spellings. He was buried as Carl.

Hendrick/Henry Caveman – I guessed on the Hendrick too but there are other spellings.

John Frederick Caveman – he never changed his name on any record other than the surname.

Bij voorbaat dank

Evert Smit

November 9, 2020

Deze vraag heb ik op 09-11 ook oop het Stamboomforum geplaatst.

Evert.

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November 10, 2020

Ik heb gezien dat men op het SF al heeft opgemerkt date er bitter weinig achtergrond is voor deze familie. Weken geleden had ik al eens naar dit onderwerp gekeken, maar heb het toen eerst maar in de “too hard basket” gestopt vanwege een “far too narrow story line”. Ik vermoed dat dit waarschijnlijk ook de reden is waarom de SF crowd tot nog toe wat ongewoon stil is.

Ik heb nog geen definitieve emigratie gevonden, maar hier zijn wel wat dingen die aan mij voorbij kwamen en misschien hebben andere onderzoekers hier wat aan ... (Ik doe het in het Engels zodat de Amerikaanse familie het zelf kan lezen en ook kan checken of ik altijd de juiste familieleden hebt gevonden)

1 - Location/Timeline

The original post mentions that mum Elizabeth was “living with son John Frederick and his family in the 1860 Census”. However, not only Fred KAVERMAN and his young wife Elizabeth (nee LUKEN), but also Charles KAVERMAN, his wife Mary (nee SPECKMAN???) and their kids can be found in the same dwelling in 8th Ward Cincinnati, Hamilton, Ohio:

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.
This was clearly not the first sighting for Elizabeth, because in 1850 mum, Charles and Frederick are living together in 8th Ward Cincinnati as well:

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.

“Karl died at a young age” was rather confusing as it seems that he was still alive in the 1880 cesus i.e. abt 58Y old by then:

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??? NB This guy Charles from 113 Hopkins st dies 63 Y old in March 1885 (although all of a sudden his “chair maker” occupation had become “shoemaker”?).
However, I assume that the actual issue is that Karl/Charles died before those later Census events containing approx immigration years! Eg 1842 for Fred in the 1901 Census (

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). It mentions an 1858 naturalisation … has anyone ever checked this? I wasn’t able to find it, but apparently quite a lot of stuff was destroyed by (I believe) a fire.

2 - Parents

Possible death for dad:
The 1850 census mortality schedule (ie persons who died during the year ending 1 June 1850) contains a Henry KAVERMAN who died in the 9th ward of Cincinnati. He was 66Y and died in July (i.e. 1849). Has this guy been checked out?

Possible death for mum:
The Cincinnati Volksfreund has an obit (date: 24 Oct 1868) for an Elisabeth KAVEMANN. She is 68Y, 2M when she dies on 23 Oct 1868. Your family might need to check this in the actual paper.
On 4 Dec 1868 a will was presented and admitted to probate for a Maria (Elizabeth) CAVEMANN. This would fit fairly well with the obit date. N.B. The beneficiaries were Maria CAVEMANN and CHARLES CAVEMANN. The actual probate/will doco might contain more useful info.

3 - Original Name

I find it hard to justify that the original name would have been KAUF(F)MAN(N). In those days, many foreign names would have evolved into an anglicized version, but in this case it would have been a very quick change. With all the Germans in Cincinnati I can’t see any reasons to hide their German background or to adapt so quickly. It is not impossible that their surname had been KAUF(F)MAN(N) and not some version of KAVE(R)MAN(N), but I’d like to see some proof first.

4 - A third sibling called Henry?

Finally, can somebody supply proof that Henry is indeed a sibling as the only one I can pinpoint has a father called Bernard. Some links for this guy:
1870 Census:

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1880 Census:

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1910 Census:

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1916 death:

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rgds, Sylvia

November 10, 2020 bewerkt door Ozlady

November 12, 2020

Sylvia dank voor je uitgebreide info,

ik ontving uit Arizona de navolgende aanvullende informatie.

Evert

Karl/Charles F. Caveman Married 1853-1854 in Ohio Anna Maria Speckman

b: between 1820-1821 Hannover, Lower Saxony, Germany b: June 1829 Hannover

d: 20 Mar 1885 Cincinnati, Hamilton, Ohio d: 11 Sep 1902 Cincinnati, Hamilton, Ohio

Parents: Johannes Hendrik Kaufman Parents: Gerhard Herman Speckmann

Mary Elizabeth Pohlmann Clara Helenkamp

1860 Census taken 20 Jun: Chas. Kaverman, age 39 (1821), born Oldenburg, living with wife Mary and children: Clara and Edward in the 8th Ward, Cincinnati, Hamilton, Ohio. Real estate value $3,000. Personal Estate $600. Occupation: chair maker. Elizabeth Kaverman (indexed Raverman) age 60, (1800) born Oldenburg living with Charles.

1870 Census taken 07 Jun: Charles Caverman (Index name) age 50 (1820), born Hanover, living with wife and four children in Central Division, 8th Ward, Cincinnati, Hanover, Ohio. Personal Estate $400. Occupation: chair maker.

1880 Census taken 04 Jan: Charles Kaveman, age 58 (1822), born Hanover, both parents born Germany, living with wife 3 children, son-in-law Henry Cramer and mother-in-law Clara Spieman at 113 Hopkins Street, Cincinnati, Hamilton, Ohio. Occupation: Chair maker.

Carl Cavemann born 1821, died in March 1885 Cincinnati. He is buried at St. Joseph Cemetery, Cincinnati.

None of the records gave year of immigration.

Two of the records stated that he was born in Hannover

Hendrick/Henry Caveman

b: 12 Sep 1825 Hannover, Lower Saxony, Germany

d: 07 Jun 1916 Cincinnati, Hanover, Ohio

Parents: Johannes Hendrik Kaufman

Mary Elizabeth Pohlmann

Married: Elizabeth Drees/Dries about 1852-1853. Elizabeth b: 1830 Germany – parents unknown. d: 1858.

Married: Bernardina Raker/Reghar between 1859-1860 in Ohio. She was born in Hannover.

Parents: John Henry Raker and Anna Rewfel/Reufel Both born in Germany.

Married: White Fawn (a Sioux Indian) no info on her, may have died in childbirth – one child, a son.

1870 Census taken 11 Jul: Henry Kauverman (Index name) age 45 (1825), born Hanover, living with wife Bernardina, son Andrew, daughters Mary Ann and Catherine and Henry in dwelling 503, Ward 8, Cincinnati, Hamilton, Ohio. Occupation: Drives lumber truck.

1880 Census taken 11 Jun: Henry Kavermann, age 52 (1828), born Germany, living with wife Diena and three children: Catherine, Frank and Frederick, at 181 Hopkins Street, Cincinnati, Hamilton, Ohio.

1900 Census taken 08 Jun: Henry Cavermann (indexed Everman), age 75 (1825), born Sept 1824 Germany, a boarder, living with the Joseph Raker family at 502 Abigale, Cincinnati, Hamilton, Ohio. Emigrated 1842, in the U.S. 58 years, naturalized. He could read, write and speak English. Joseph Raker is a brother of Hendrik’s 2^nd wife, Bernardina.

1910 Census taken 19 Apr: Henry Caseman (Index name), age 86 (1824), father-in-law, born German, widower. Living with son Andy at daughter Catherine's home at 1044 West Liberty Street, Cincinnati, Hamilton, Ohio. Emigrated 1843 Naturalized. He could read and write. Naturalization papers not found. During a riot in 1884 the courthouse was burned and many records were destroyed.

Immigrated 1842 – 1843

Hendrik’s death record had many errors. – Father Bernard – Mother unknown.

John Frederick Caveman Married: 15 Sep 1859 Ohio Mary Elizabeth Luken

b: 03 Jan 1828 Oldenberg, Lower Saxony, Germany b: 16 Jan 1842 Cincinnati, Hamilton, Ohio

d: 12 Feb 1910 Cincinnati, Hamilton Ohio d: 26 Jul 1930 Cincinnati, Hamilton, Ohio

Parents: Johannes Hendrik Kaufman Parents: Johann Gerhard Luken -Germany

Mary Elizabeth Pohlmann Mary Ann Brockmann-Germany

His Death record: Father: John H. Caveman, born Germany - Mother: Mary E. Pohlmann

1860 Census taken 20 Jun: Fred Kaveman, age 31, born (1829) Oldenburg, living with wife Elizabeth in the 8th Ward, Cincinnati, Hamilton, Ohio. Real estate value $3,000. Personal Estate $600. Occupation: chair maker. Brother Charles, his family and John and Charles mother living next door.

1870 Census taken 09 Jun: Fried Keveman (Index name) age 42 (1828), born Oldenberg, Germany, living with wife and three children: Josie, Julia and Francis in the city of Aurora, Dearborn, Indiana. Personal Estate $100. Occupation: chair maker.

1880 Census taken 11 Jun: Fred Kaveman, age 50(1830), born Oldenberg, Germany, both parents born Germany. Living with wife and three children on Clay Avenue. Occupation: traveling agent.

1900 Census taken 12 Jun: Fred Caveman, age 72, born Jan 1828 Germany, living with wife and four children at 1624 Clayton Street, Cincinnati City, Hamilton, Ohio. Married 40 years. Emigrated 1842 and lived in U.S. for 38 years. Naturalized. He could read, write and speak English. Occupation: commercial traveler.

Immigrated 1842

November 12, 2020

Tja het belangrijkste deel had ik dus zelf al uitgewerkt en ook heb ik dingen vermeld die je familie schijnbaar nog niet had. Het is duidelijk dat mijn vorige post niet is bekeken, want geen van mijn vragen zijn beantwoord ... ik had liever gehad dat die vragen wel waren beantwoord want misschien helpen die om de echte achternaam + immigratie te bepalen.

i.e.

research 1858 naturalisation?

1849 death of a Henry KAVERMAN?

proof of KAUF(F)MAN(N) surname?

1916 death for Henry has different father. I can accept that errors in certificates are possible, but I need to see some proof of this from another (preferably primary?) source ...

(see my previous post for more background info)

and a new question: Have you found Henry in the 1850 census as he's not living with his supposed mum and 2 siblings?

November 12, 2020 bewerkt door Ozlady

November 13, 2020

Heel eerlijk gezegd, Sylvia, dat verwondert me niets. Ik heb door de jaren heen incidenteel contacten met Amerika gehad inzake (hun Nederlandse) voorouders en ik kreeg echt nóóit antwoord op gerichte vragen. Wel hun eigen onderzoek, wel speculaties, maar geen antwoorden.

November 13, 2020

Hmmm ... interesting, Petra.

bedankt

Sylvia

November 13, 2020

I researched Bernard Kaverman and found the 1860 Census. I have never seen this before but before opening the Census

there was a note that Gotfriedt Marx (born 1813 Hesse-Darmstadt) was a relative. He and his wife Mary and daughter Helen

were in the 1860 Census. Maybe another helpful lead?

Dit bericht kreeg ik gisteren

Evert

November 13, 2020

@ Sylvia,

Hierbij enkele antwoorden uit Arizona en het is Hendrick/Henry waarvan de mensen af stammen

Most Naturalization papers in Cincinnati (Hamilton County) were burned during a riot.

I did not find Henry in the 1850 Census. The earliest Census was 1860. The earliest record in City Directories was 1871.

Henry’s Death Certificate gave his father’s name as Bernard.

Certificate of Death File #37557 – Registered No. 3316

Henry Kaferman – b: 14 Sep 1882 d: 07 Jun 1916 St. Francis Hospital, Cincinnati, Hamilton, Ohio

Name of Father: Bernard Kaferman, Germany Name of Mother: unknown, Germany

Henry is the link that is for the family that I am researching.

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November 13, 2020

NB het geboortejaar moet 1825 zijn.

Evert

November 16, 2020

At the moment this topic is a dog’s breakfast because of assumptions, errors and repeats while this is a complicated topic that needs to be kept very tight. It is very important to read and question everything! e.g. Henry’s father supposedly being a Bernard is something that I’d already mentioned as being a possible issue in my first contribution (incl a link to his DC). And, IMHO it seems rather screwy that somebody (Gotfriedt Marx) who is on page 97 of the 1860 Ward 12 census is known to be related to someone (Bernard Kaverman) on page 388 of the 1860 Ward 12 census (FYI I have been able to replicate this issue for another name i.e. be aware that Ancestry and other sites can contain occasional system bugs).

So let’s get back to basics first!

Before we start looking at any possible parents, immigrations etc, I want to get Henry’s documented life/timeline in America as complete as possible. In my next reply I’ll be supplying everything that I can find for him and you’ll need to check it thoroughly (incl any links). Let me know if there are any questions, errors, or if you can add details (with proof) that will help us to understand Henry’s story. N. B. I’m not too worried regarding the completeness of his children’s details except when they can help us to understand Henry’s life.
I think that we can be in agreement that presently there is NO proof that Henry and Charles/Frederick were siblings. So for now we are going to shelve everything regarding Charles, Frederick and their mum and dad and ONLY focus on Henry your actual relative.

Additionally, I think that Henry’s relationship with a “White Fawn” could be a bit of a red herring. I doubt that he is the Henry G CAVEMAN who fathered a child born in Montana around 1880. However, if you have any information that proves conclusively that your Henry is the father of this Frank Charles CAVEMAN, please supply those details. Until then this is another item that will be shelved in order to simplify things.

Before I forget, I’ve got a question. You mentioned the following:
“1900 Census taken 08 Jun: Henry Cavermann (indexed Everman), age 75 (1825), born Sept 1824 Germany, a boarder, living with the Joseph Raker family at 502 Abigale, Cincinnati, Hamilton, Ohio. Emigrated 1842, in the U.S. 58 years, naturalized. He could read, write and speak English. Joseph Raker is a brother of Hendrik’s 2^nd wife, Bernardina.”
I’d love to know where it is documented that Bernadina Kafermann and Joseph Raker were siblings as I haven’t been able to find this information yet …

Sylvia

November 16, 2020

Henrich / Joannes Henricus / John Henry KAUFERMANN/KAFERMAN/KAVE(R)MAN/CAVEMAN (etc) b abt Sep 1824-1827 Germany,
d 7 Jun 1916, bur St Joseph Cem (DC:

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), occ: Teamster, Laborer, son of Bernard
- NB Henry uses the surname “KAUFERMANN” when he marries in 1848 and 1864!

Marriage#1 9 Jan 1848 (Catholic) St Joseph, Cincinnati West End (civil MC:

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)
To:
(Maria) Elisabeth(a)/Elizabeth/Eliza DREES b abt 1829 Germany, d before May 1864
- There is a probable burial for her at Holy Trinity in Jun 1863

Marriage#2 2 May 1864 (Catholic) Holy Trinity -

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To:
Bernadina/Diena/Dina KETTELMAN nee RENNEKER b abt 1835 Germany, d 3 Apr 1892, bur St Joseph Cem (

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)
- NB Her maiden name “RENNEKER” was mentioned in her burial record
- On 28 Feb 1854 Bernardina RENNEKER married Henry/Joannes Henricus KETTELMAN/KITTELMAN (abt 1832-Jun 1863) a teamster and sawyer in St Joseph, Cincinnati, West End
- The KETTELMAN family in 1860 census -

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(FYI: The older child would have had a different mother and the younger one seems to have died just before his father)
- Could 1863/4 have been the time when Henry Kaverman starts working as a teamster i.e. did he take over from Dina’s first husband?

Census:
1850 Census – still can’t find it
This one for 1860 Census? (“Henry Coffman”), residence: Ward 6, Cincinnati, Hamilton (

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)
1870 Census (“Henry Kauverman”), residence: Ward 8, Cincinnati Hamilton (

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)
1880 Census (“Henry Kaverman), residence: 181 Hopkins Street, Ward 16, Hamilton (

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)
1900 Census (“Henry Cavermann), residence: 502 Abigail, Cincinnati Ward 3, Hamilton (

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)
1910 Census (“Henry Caveman”), residence: West Liberty Street, Cincinnati Ward 21, Hamilton (

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)

Cincinnati Directories:
In (at least) the 1871-1892 directories Henry KAVE(R)MAN(N), teamster is living at 181 Hopkins. But I suspect that he might have moved there a few years before 1871, because I found the following 3 earlier entries for 181 Hopkins:
1869 “H Cabemann”, driver
1868 “Henry Gaferman”, driver
1867 “Henry Cabeman”, teamster

Other possible entries:
1864: “Kauffermann Henry, driver, n.w.c. Wood and Third”
1862: “Kavelman Henry, lab., e.s. Ramsey n. Of Front”
1861: “Coffman Henry, lab., 507 W. 4^th”
(If I manage to find any earlier entries that seem to be possibilities, I’ll add them to this list)

A rough overview regarding Henry’s children (Is incomplete and could be a bit buggy due to lack of good records, but that’s okay for now as I don’t want to spend too much time on them):
? Mariam Elisabetham b 23 Nov 1848, bap 25 Nov 1848 (Catholic) Holy Trinity, Cincinnati, West End
? Christina b 25 Mar 1852, bap 25 Mar 1852 (Catholic) Holy Trinity, Cincinnati, West End
Johann Henrich b 8 Nov 1853, bap 8 Nov 1853 (Catholic) Holy Trinity, Cincinnati, West End
Andreas Ludewig/Andrew Louis b 5 Nov 1855 (DC has 25 Nov 1854), bap 6 Nov 1855 (Catholic) Holy Trinity, Cincinnati, West End,
d 14 Jan 1916 St Francis Hospital, bur St Joseph Cem (

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)
occ: teamster (1916), never married
Joannes Mathias b 4 Nov 1857, bap 4 Nov 1857 (Catholic) Holy Trinity, Cincinnati, East End)
? Franklin b abt 1860
Mary Ann b abt 1861
Catherine b abt 1865/7, d 23 Mar 1939, burial St Joseph Cem (

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)
John Henry b abt 1870, d 24 May 1871
Dina b abt 1871, d 20 Oct 1871
J.H.F (=Frank) b 21 Aug 1874, d 1945, burial St Joseph (

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)
Elizabeth b 27 Sep 1878
Josephine L b abt 1879, d 27 May 1880, burial St Joseph (

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)
Joseph Frederick b 06 Jun 1880, d 02 Aug 1880 (

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)

November 16, 2020 bewerkt door Ozlady

September 5, 2021

Excellent work Ozlady! And Evert Smit. I'm just reading this today, Sept 2021, and your references helped me find some of the "hidden" Caveman in the census reports. They certainly mangled the surname, didn't they?

Charles (Carl) Frederich Cavemann (1822-1885) is my great-great grandfather, through his daughter Clara Kramer née Cavemann (1855-1916), my great-grandmother. My mother had assembled a good deal of genealogical information from oral history and public records in Cincinnati in the 1940's-1980's, and I've been following it up lately with internet research.

From family records and other information, I knew that the family came from Nellinghof, a small village/farming community 10 km east of Damme, in current day Niedersachsen. In the 19th century, it was in the Duchy of Oldenburg. At other times, the area was part of the Kingdom of Hannover. From tracking other ancestors of mine from the Damme area, I discovered that Nellinghof belongs to the parish of St. Bonifatius in Neuenkirchen (not St. Viktor's in Damme).

The Kirchenbücher (church registries) of many Catholic parishes in parts of Germany are now available on Matricula, and those from the parish of St. Bonifatius, Neuenkirchen, are at: (

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). Unfortunately, those are not indexed - at least that I've seen. However, by paging through laboriously, starting in 1798-1811 and 1820-1835, I've found the birth/baptismal, marriage and some death/burial records of this family. Of course it's possible to miss someone, but evidence from Honkomp's namelist of immigrants strongly suggests that I've identified everyone in the Johann Henrich Cavemann/Maria Elisabeth Pohlmann family who emigrated. (see final conclusion below)

If anyone uses Family Search, you can click on the following people using their ID numbers, and view all of these birth/baptismal records ( I have not yet gone back before 1798 to look for birth dates and parent names of these individuals.)

Johann Henrich Cavemann G86M-BH6 m. 11 Jan 1803 Maria Elisabeth Speckbauch (or Speckback) G869-RBQ

marriage record:

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Children: 1. Johann Henrich Cavemann GZJG-ZC3 b. 10 May 1803 (oops - guess that January 1803 marriage was needed!) - See below for his marriage/children

2. Anna Maria Catharina Cavemann GZJG-ZC3 b. 29. Jan 1804

3. Johann Gerhard Henrich Cavemann G86S-VNC b. 26 April 1808, d. 15 July 1809 (Neuenkirchen)

4. - ? There may be more children born after 1811. I haven't completed 1811-1820 yet.

Also at this same time, we have the Pohlmann family:

Johann Henrich Pohlmann G869-LBC. m. 12 Oct 1799 Catharina Maria Brune G869-K5P

marriage record:

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Children: 1. Maria Elisabeth Pohlmann GZJG-WSX. b. 24 Aug 1800 - See below for her marriage/children

2. Johann Bernard Henrich Pohlmann G869-P3V b. 24 Aug 1802

3. Gerhard Henrich Pohlmann G869-P3V b. 30 Aug 1804, d. 24 April 1824 (Neuenkirchen)

4. Catharina Maria Pohlmann G869-P3V b. 9 Mar 1807

5. Johann Josef Pohlmann G869-P3V. b. 1 Aug 1810, d. 15 May 1832 (Neuenkirchen)

6. -? There may be more children born after 1811. I haven't completed 1811-1820 yet.

In 1822, we have Johann Henrich Cavemann GZJG-ZC3 b. 10 May 1803 m. 24 Apr 1822 with Maria Elisabeth Pohlmann GZJG-WSX. b. 24 Aug 1800

marriage record:

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Children: 1. Carl/Charles Fredrich Cavemann (Carolus Fridricus in Latin) GQ77-Q9Y b. 28 Feb 1822

Birth record:

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Note that the original has the word "illegitiumus" crossed out and the words "per matrimonium" written in

2. Catharina Maria Gertrud Cavemann G8D5-RNQ b. 19 Sep 1824, d. 15 Dec 1826 (Neuenkirchen)

3. Bernard Fredrich Cavemann (Bernardus Fridericus in Latin) GQ77-Q9Y, b. 3 Jan 1828, d. 12 Feb. 1910 (Cincinnati, Ohio, US)

I am pretty sure that there are no other children of Johann Henrich Cavemann and Maria Elisabeth Pohlmann. Reasons:

1. I went through the birth/baptisms in the kirchenbuch all the way up to 1835 and found no births to this couple after 1828.

2. Honkomp

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lists these and only these Cavemanns emigrating from Nellinghof 1830-49.

Kavemann, Carl, Sohn von Heinrich Kavemann, bei Helmich 1 1844 Nellinghof

Kavemann, Kolon mit Frau und 1 Sohn 3 1845 Nellinghof. (This would be Johann Henrich, his wife Maria Elisabeth, and son Bernard Fredrich)

Thus, Carl went ahead in 1844, and the other three followed in 1845.

3. The 1850 census in Cincinnati, as you already noted, shows Johann Henrich not present (most likely, dead) and only Charles, Elisabeth and Fredrich in the household. Surely if there had been another child born after 1835, they would have brought them along, as they would have been quite young.

I want to add my opinion that the name Kauferman or Kaufman is an error made in the US when a clerk or census-taker wrote down the name Cavemann. There was no one with the surname Kaufman in Neuenkirchen. In German, (you no doubt already know this since all of you speak Dutch, en dus is jouw Duits waarschijnlijk beter dan het mijne - but for any English-only readers:) the letter "v" is pronounced very close to the sound "f" - so close that a non-German speaker might not hear the difference. The "a" in Cavemann would be pronounced as "ah" by a German speaker. Thus, a clerk might HEAR Kahf-mann, and transcribe it as the more common name "Kaufman."

So Ozlady, I totally concur that John Henry Cavemann, the teamster/sawyer, was not a sibling of Charles and Frederick. However, if you want to trace his family back to Germany, there was another Johann Henrich Cavemann in the St. Bonifatius parish in the early 19th century. He married Catharina Maria Flottemesch on 12 Jan 1797. As I paged through looking for children born to "my" Johann Henrich Cavemann and Maria Elisabeth Pohlmann, I recall seeing that the Cavemann/Flottemesch couple were also producing babies. If you want to identify that family, I suggest starting with the Taufenbuch in 1797 and see if you find "your" family as a parent to a John Henry born in the 1820's.

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.

I'm interested in learning what source anyone has for an 1842 immigration for this family. Maybe I missed it. All I can find is Honkomp saying they checked out in 1844 and 1845. Would love to find a ship passenger record, but it's probably disguised as a mangled version of the surname.

All the best!

Beth Kramer

September 6, 2021

Hi Beth,

Last year we'd continued via private messaging, and a lot more data was added to both of these families (incl Cincinnati and German events). Unfortunately it isn't fresh in my brain anymore, so this makes scrolling through my many notes a bit trickier at the moment ...

Regarding passenger lists, I'd seen those 2 entries as well:
#1 - Kavemann, Kolon mit Frau und 1 Sohn 3 1845 Nellinghof (i.e. Joannes Henricus Cavemann and his wife were “coloni” (singular: colonus) from Nellinghof(e) i.e. peasants, farmers, colonists etc.)
#2 - Kavemann, Carl, Sohn von Heinrich Kavemann, bei Helmich 1 1844 Nellinghof
I could not find anything extra for the first entry, but Carl seems to have come over on the Rebecca from Bremen to Maryland, Baltimore. Arrival: 22 May 1844:

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(#41)

FYI

The other CAVEMANN family seems to have left Hastrup/Bersenbrück late 1843 (The transcription for Oct 1843 “Auswanderer” mentions a “Stareman” (

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), but the original seems to have “Cavemann”(

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. NB The baptism of one of the children mentions this 1843 emigration as well:

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.

And yes, with the details from his 1825 marriage (

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) it is quite clear that the father Joannes Bernardus Henricus was born on 14 April 1798 as the son of Joannes Henricus CAVEMANN and Catharina Maria FLOTTEMESCH -

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. Because of the location I had wondered whether he could have been related to your CAVEMANNS (but had left this to the OP) ....

Rgds Sylvia

September 6, 2021 bewerkt door Ozlady

September 6, 2021

PS

I'm not sure abt that 1803 birth yet as I still believe that your guy "Johann Henrich Cavemann" died in 1849 - Image 1850 Mortality Schedule:

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FYI: Henrich Kavermann (66y) died on 24 Jul 1849 and was buried on 25 July 1849 (Parish: Old St Mary, Archdiocese of Cincinnati)

NB I don't believe that "Johann Henrich's parents are mentioned anywhere, so how can you be sure when he was born? e.g. What abt this 1786 possibility?:

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September 6, 2021 bewerkt door Ozlady

September 6, 2021

Dear Sylvia,

Gosh, thank you! I think that by finding Stamboomvragenforum.nl, my husband and I have happened upon a professional genealogists' forum? Your research is so thorough and careful, and you have far more sources that we were aware of.

I really appreciate having Carl Cavemann's ship passage information.

I now realize from Henrich Cavemann/Kavermann's death records (which I didn't previously know about), he was 66 years old when he died. Thus, I agree with you that the 1803 birth is not just questionable, but unlikely. It's too bad that St. Bonifatius, unlike some other parishes in the area, did not include parent names in their Trauungen/Heiraten Kirchenbuch (other than the Zivilstand records after 1808). I think your 1786 birth is a good match. I can't think of any other way to confirm that it is correct individual, other than age at death. There are property records that name him and describe the conditions of his land ownership and rent payments (which I only partially understand), but they don't give his age.

Log alstublieft in om de link te kunnen zien.

The existence of two catholic parishes in Neuenkirchen, one in the diocese of Osnabrück and the other in the diocese of Vechta, further complicates the records.

Anyhow, it's all interesting stuff.

If you ever need information about Johann Gerhard Kramer or Maria Anna Drahman or their antecedents in Damme are, or descendants in Cincinnati, let me know. Happy to share. I've also researched other family branches in Melle, Vreden, several parts of Rhin-Pfalz (Palatinate), and Haut-Rhin (Alsace), Batesville & Oldenburg Indiana...

Beth

September 7, 2021

A few things

Re passenger lists: I remember that after finding Karl on the Rebecca, I paged through a couple of years of the same series trying to find his parents and the family from Hastrup. Nothing turned up but I could have easily overlooked them especially if their names were rather mangled.

Of course we can't be 100% sure that the Henrich who died in 1849 is the father of Karl and Fred, but who else could he be (NB in 1850 the remaining family members were in the 9th ward as well:

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) and where would an alternative death be for the dad? The un-transcribed age at death is 66 years in 2 separate documents, so we'll have to assume that he was born abt 1783 i.e. the 1786 baptism isn't exactly what we want, but it is more promising than 1803. I can't guarantee that there aren't more suitable Caveman baptisms in Nellinghofe that were overlooked. And then there is also the chance that your guy was born in a different parish. I'm not sure how you can determine which is yours, but you could start by trying to eliminate any JH's via the a local burial/death records ...

BTW I just realised something that I do NOT agree with!!!!:

Since last year, someone has changed the transcription of the surname on the 1850 census:

Last year it was "KAVENEN" i.e. close to what the document contains, but now it is "CAVEMANN" (see:

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)

Just because "CAVEMANN" is someone's truth, I don't think they should be forcing their truth by changing the contents of the original documents.

PS and of course this is not the only Cincinnati census that has had its transcription changed to something that is not in the document!!!

September 7, 2021 bewerkt door Ozlady

September 7, 2021

Hier het bericht dat ik via mail van Betz uit Arizona ontving .

Hi Evert:

This was a surprise. Too bad Betz Kramer didn’t enlighten us about herself. Laughed about her first name being Betz.

I’ll look at it again tomorrow (7:00 p.m. and I have had a busy, tiring day). Seems Betz rattles on a lot about what is clear to her

but so far has left me somewhat confused.

I wonder if I can contact her directly? Her line isn’t related to my Caveman side but might be if we went back farther.

How are you and Grace?

Betz

September 8, 2021

Dear Sylvia,

I agree with your "if not him, who else?" question regarding the 1849 death of Henry Kaverman. We believe J. Henrich "checked out" with the German authorities in 1845, along with his wife and son. No one of his name and age was buried in Neuenkirchen between 1845-49 (I checked), and as you pointed out, he isn't on the 1850 census with the rest of the family. There aren't many Cavemanns/Kavemanns present in Cincinnati at that time.

To eliminate locate any other Joannes Henricus Cavemann candidates for Neuenkirchen area, I've gone through the all of the 1780's baptismal records from St. Bonifatius, and the other two parishes in Neuenkirchen from 1780-86. There is no other Joannes Henricus Cavemann. I believe I have found a sibling in 1790 but haven't gone further yet. Elimination isn't proof, but it helps.

I apologize - I did suggest an edit to the Kavenen name on the 1850 census, and one or two others. My idea was to be helpful to others who are searching for this easily-mangled surname, and making an edit doesn't render the original spelling unsearchable. But I do take your point, because I get annoyed with others who add the first search finding that comes up, without critically analysing it. In fact, I made that mistake with the 1803 Johann Henrich Cavemann birth. I just don't know where the line is between clarifying a clear mistake and imposing one's truth on a public document. I understand from your polite suggestion that the professional genealogy code is not to change any transcriptions or records. I wonder why the Family Search and Ancestry software provides edit buttons, and if there are any rules-of-thumb about when it IS acceptable to make an edit. I expect you're busy and I don't mean to engage you in a long discussion. Just saying I didn't know not to do it and was trying to be helpful.

Best wishes,

Beth

September 8, 2021 bewerkt door Elsy

September 8, 2021

Hi Beth,

I don't have a problem changing a transcript when it doesn't correctly represent the original document. Some of these historic documents are hard to read and some people are better at this task than others (e.g. I am really bad at old script). Hopefully as time goes by the transcripts will become better and better.

So yes, the edit function has a role to play. However, I have seen many instances where someone was convinced about certain historical data only to be proved that they had been wrong at a later date. And where to stop? Should you go all the way and correct every piece of data like birth dates, immigration dates, place names? After a while the altered transcription wouldn't represent the original document anymore and that is a scary thought. I noticed that you had linked the data to your family tree and that should point other people in the right direction anyway.

BTW this is one of the best variations of Cavemann that I've seen. The address and date confirm that it is for the death of your (x times) great grandmother Maria Elisabeth Pohlmann:

Log alstublieft in om de link te kunnen zien.

rgds, Sylvia

September 8, 2021 bewerkt door Ozlady

March 16, 2022

My great grandfather, Frank Charles Caveman, filed a U.S. Social Security report listing Henry G. Caveman and White Fawn as his parents. Frank was born in Montana on 8/21/1884 and died in Cincinnati, Ohio on 2/16/1945. He is buried in Saint Joseph Cemetery in Cincinnati, which is where, coincidentlly, Charles "Carl" Cavemann (died 3/20/1885) is buried. As a child I was told that my great-great grandmother was a Sioux Indian. My grandfather is Frank Charles Caveman Jr., and my father is James Charles Caveman, Sr. I'm James Jr.

I'm also looking for the parents of the elusive Henry Caveman. i enjoyed reading this thread, and I'm sorry I couldn't provide more information.

Jim

March 16, 2022

Jim, I forwarded your message to the right person in Arizona.

March 16, 2022

Thanks!

March 17, 2022

22 hours ago, J.C.Caveman said:

My great grandfather, Frank Charles Caveman, filed a U.S. Social Security report listing Henry G. Caveman and White Fawn as his parents. Frank was born in Montana on 8/21/1884 and died in Cincinnati, Ohio on 2/16/1945. He is buried in Saint Joseph Cemetery in Cincinnati, which is where, coincidentlly, Charles "Carl" Cavemann (died 3/20/1885) is buried. As a child I was told that my great-great grandmother was a Sioux Indian. My grandfather is Frank Charles Caveman Jr., and my father is James Charles Caveman, Sr. I'm James Jr.

I'm also looking for the parents of the elusive Henry Caveman. i enjoyed reading this thread, and I'm sorry I couldn't provide more information.

Jim

Jim, I'm not sure what you are going to think of the following:

OK, so I realize that this is Frank’s SSN application with birth date 21 aug 1884:

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However, it seems that everywhere else his birth year was somewhere in the 1870’s and his birth place is either Ohio or Montana:

Various census with his wife Rosa:
1910 -

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1920 -

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1930 -

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? 1940 – possibly as “Scaveman” -

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1945 burial card:

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(NB his wife Rosa:

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)

His WW1 registration has birth date = 21 Aug 1874 (i.e. same DD and MM as SSN appl, but YY is 10 years earlier)

And guess what, there was a KAVEMAN birth on 21 August 1874:

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So parents are Henry and “Dena” and location Cincinnati!

Now we can find Frank with his parents in the 1880 census:

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I didn’t go any further today, but here are some of my old notes for Frank’s parents (most has been mentioned before in this topic, but it helps to see the whole story)

Henrich / Joannes Henricus / John Henry KAUFERMANN/KAFERMAN/KAVE(R)MAN/CAVEMAN (etc) b abt Sep 1824-1827,
d 7 Jun 1916, bur St Joseph Cem (DC:

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), occ: Teamster, Laborer,
son of Bernard & Anna according to his burial info:

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(FYI I have a bit more re Henry's German background)

NB Henry uses the surname “KAUFERMANN” when he marries in 1848 and 1864!

Marriage#1 9 Jan 1848 (Catholic) St Joseph, Cincinnati West End (civil MC:

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)
To:
(Maria) Elisabeth(a)/Elizabeth/Eliza DREES b abt 1829 Germany, d before May 1864, There is a probable burial for her at Holy Trinity in Jun 1863

Marriage#2 2 May 1864 (Catholic) Holy Trinity -

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To:
Bernadina/Diena/Dina KETTELMAN nee RENNEKER b abt 1835 Bersenbrück, Hannover, Preußen,
d 3 Apr 1892, bur St Joseph Cem (

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&

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)
NB Her maiden name “RENNEKER” was mentioned in her burial record
On 28 Feb 1854 Bernardina RENNEKER married Henry/Joannes Henricus KETTELMAN/KITTELMAN (abt 1832-Jun 1863) a teamster and sawyer in St Joseph, Cincinnati, West End
The KETTELMAN family in 1860 census -

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(FYI: The older child would have had a different mother and the younger one seems to have died just before his father)
Could 1863/4 have been the time when Henry Kaverman starts working as a teamster i.e. did he take over from Dina’s first husband?

March 17, 2022 bewerkt door Ozlady

March 17, 2022

Jim,

This I received From Betz in Arizona.

Thanks Evert:

Can I write to this Jim directly or how do I get in touch with him.

This part of the family I was unable to find I think he must live in Ohio

March 17, 2022

Hello Sylvia, thanks for the information! I haven't finished going through it all. It does appear that Franks's birth year is 1874, after double checking with St. Joseph Cemetery. And, using your info, I found Henry Kaverman and Bernadina "Dina" Caverman at St. Joseph's Cemetery. Henry's death certificate has him as Henry Kaferman. They are in the same lot, ten graves apart. Henry's father is Bernard Kaferman, who may be Joannes Bernardus Gerhardus Cavemann. I need to visit that cemetery next time I am in Cincinnati. I was never told that all my ancestors are buried there! Maybe I should buy a plot for myself. Coincidentlly, I recently found that when I was born my parents lived across the street from this cemetery. I should check to see if the house is still there.

March 17, 2022

I believe that this is your Henry as Bernard Henry with his parents and siblings:

Johan Bernard CAVEMANN
Possible death in 1868:

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(FYI also buried in St Joseph's)
X 7 Sep 1825 (

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)
Anna Maria Catharina KREKE
-
Children (there could be more):
Bernd Henrich b 3 Nov 1825 (

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)
Maria Catharine Elisabeth CAVERMANN b 10 Dec 1826, bap 12 Dec 1826 St Johannis, Alfhausen -

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Gerhardus Henricus KAVERMANN b 9 Oct 1928, bap 11 Oct 1828 St Johannis, Alfhausen -

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Catherina Maria Adelheid b abt 1831??, d 10 Aug 1838 (

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)
Maria Catharina Elizabeth b 16 Sep 1833 (

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), d 20 May 1841 (

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)
Christian Carl b 4 Nov 1835 (

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– mentions Oct 1843 emigration)
Johann Bernard b 19 Jun 1838 (

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), d 25 May 1839 (

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)
Hermann Joseph b 22 Sep 1841 (

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), d 4 Jan 1842 (

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)
Bernard Heinrich b 3 Jun 1843 (

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)
-
The transcription for Oct 1843 “Auswanderer” mentions a “Stareman” (

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), but the original seems to have “Cavemann”(

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).
NB Both versions mention that family leaves with 5 children.

re Henry's father:
Joannes Bernardus Henricus was born on 14 April 1798 as the son of Joannes Henricus CAVEMANN and Catharina Maria FLOTTEMESCH -

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Joannes Henricus CAVEMANN and Catharina Maria FLOTTEMESCH marry on 12 Jan 1797 -

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A Catharina Maria CAVEMANN, nee FLOTTEMESCH dies 17 Oct 1802. She is 29Y, 10m -

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March 17, 2022 bewerkt door Ozlady

March 17, 2022

Evert, Betz can post on this forum or he can email me at jim.caveman@yahoo.com.

March 17, 2022

Thanks Sylvia.

gezin Kaufman-Pohlman. Hannover Oldenburg ca 1800 datum emigratie naar USA

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